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Two bolts, one very unsafe, were removed from top of Lassies Wall recently. any ideas of why, who, when they were placed?
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Two bolts, one very unsafe, were removed from top of Lassies Wall recently. any ideas of why, who, when they were placed?
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Simon Young
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Heres an image of the bolt. I know they were removed only a few days ago so can't have been in very long. They were positioned up near the large tree on the top, very close to the bomber cracks nearby.
Its a pretty poor effort to put bolts in the area typically used for teaching TR stuff. The audacity to do so in such a popular area!
The worst part is how wildly incompetent the installer was at placing bolts. The installation method was totally bogus, and a blind baboon could probably do a better job. A 10mm hanger CANNOT be used on a 12mm dynabolt, end of story. the two threads holding it on a not enough!!! I know a lot of Lucky brand hangers have been sold from MD's, but not from the hobart store for quite some time.
To whoever did it, your a muppet!!
(And dont even try to compare this to Nefertiti....)
John Fischer
The person/people who bolted Lassie's probably had the same conversations with their climbing peers as Alex Wilson did before he bolted Nefertiti. The difference is that the Lassie bolters were “muppets” according to Simon but Alex and his mates are master climbing guides who need only their own approval to go about retro bolting established trad routes. The Lassie bolts are chopped and the bolters are ridiculed, while the Nefertiti bolts remain and are presented as shining examples of how hardened trad veterans are making it a bit easier for the novice climber.
I see very little difference between the Lassie bolts and the Nefertiti bolts. And Simon: Just saying “Dont even compare these” is almost as useless as ridiculing someone who made a mistake in bolting. BTW, if you want to call anyone who screwed up a bolting job in Tassie a muppet, you would need to spend most of a day ringing everyone who bolts in the state. Start with yourself. And coming from someone who kicks up a whinge about “Can't we all just get along?” whenever there is any strong difference of opinions in Tas climbing, its strange that instead of offering advice on proper bolting, you just berate them online. Tony was a bit more reserved but since these were chopped before asking, the bolters are probably apprehensive to identify themselves.
When the CCT got started I had some reservations. I hope it doesn’t continue to be a way to legitimate unilateral decisions by the self-appointed climbing masters of Hobart.
Simon Young
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt.
You keep on about consensus saying there is none. The consenus is that the Nefertiti bolts are appreciated, and the ones on Lassies aren't. I have spoken to about 20 people in the recent few weeks to get to this 'consensus'. It seems three people dont want bolts on Nefertiti, the rest do. Must the search for black and white in a world of greys continue? Can you really not see differences between a rarely visited ledge on a seldom repeated route to that of one of the most popular areas in freycinet? One that is used to teach how to establish bombproof natural anchors? You can compare apples to oranges for the sake of argument all you like, but most peoples eyes will continue to glaze over as the rant begins.
So where are all these shit bolts John? Having placed so many yourself I guess you are the person to consult. Perhaps you could be specific instead of slagging off those how put in the time/money to develop new routes that bottom feeders are so eager to complain about? You are right that i should do something to get the standard of bolts up to scratch, perhaps i could put in heaps of time and effort to write out something like a Fixed Anchor Installation Guidlines. Do you think those bolts looked ok? That there was no thought process that went "they dont look that good, but I guess it'll do". Thats not on, gambling with others life!
None of these bolting incidents have come from anything to do with the CCT. The good dialogue with HCC, Mt Wellington Trust and Parks is. The new trackwork to prevent erosion on the pipes is. Re-bolting of Waterworks and Fruhauf is. I guess these are the terrible things we've been doing to destroy climbing . So please tell us all about your selfless endeavours for positive change you've been up to? Would you like to help the final drafts for the Anchor Standard? Perhaps help teach some safety skills when your back in the state?
dave james
I think consensus is over rated. Consensus gave us 12 years of john howard. we can get any consensus we want if we talk to the right people. i don't think its the point.
there are two points of concern with the bolts at lassies
a. that despite well established standards for such installations (and i thank Simon in particular for being very proactive on promoting the use of the best hardware for such installations) a particularly shoddy job was done.
b. that some people think that its ok to place anchors with disregard for Place, history, and other climbers.
Had these bolts been placed to the highest standard then it seems to me that the differences with this incident and Nefertiti dbb are somewhat arbitrary. I'm not so sure the nefertiti belay is a "rarely visited ledge on a seldom repeated route" I've done it a few times at least and i'm sure i could think of other ascents. I'm not sure what the standard number is for rarely and seldom? Climbers that climb in the 20s probably rarely or seldom repeat nefertiti or a whole range of other moderate classics and may talk to their friends who do the same, ending up with a skewed view of how 'abandoned' the route is. I dunno. For bumblies like me who have spent most of their climbing life sub grade 20 it may not be quite like that.
Perhaps the installer was thinking we should accept that things change or get over outdated notions suggesting that bolts have any negative affect on anything. Afterall people learning to build bombproof anchors can choose (or be directed ) to not use the bolts, as Doug similarly suggested. It would be very nice for guiding purposes to have a quick DBB at the top of pandoras box. Apologies for the sarcasm but in this world of grey its very hard to work out what is ok and what is not.
Incidentally, and maybe this should be a different thread, the installer may have placed the bolts in a halfbaked attempt to protect the sheoak at the top of the crag which will be dead in a couple of years due to climber traffic around the base. The tree is our friend, we've all appreciated it as part of our anchors or a touch of shade. Suggestions anyone? i thought maybe some clever rockwork may prevent further destabilisation but i'm not really sure what is feasible.
John Fischer
<FRAGILE EGO ALERT!> Whoa. Look Simon, if your going to preside over such an August body as the CCT, you should grow some thicker skin. Stating the blindingly obvious here; Most people who bolt have made mistakes. John Fisher's bolts at Sister's Beach, the bolts you placed and removed near Third Bird, and Doug's bolts he never got around to removing on the Amphitheater are three of many examples. Everyone makes mistakes. That doesn’t make these guys (or anyone who puts in a regrettable bolt) muppets. What pisses me off is that people are chopping bolts and then rubbing it in peoples faces. If I was the guy that put those bolts in Lassie's and then had them removed in this way I would be a little upset. Imagine if someone removed the bolts on Nefertiti with the same self righteous shit talking. Oh, the outrage...
As I said, I do see a little difference between bolts at Lassies and Nefertiti. Dave James summed up the differences pretty well. My main argument why bolts should not be installed is that trad anchors have been used on these climbs for decades. My reasons have nothing to do with guiding. Unfortunately in both cases, it seems likely that guiding is the main concern for adding or removing bolts. This is a bad development.
As far as my “selfless efforts for positive change”. Thats not why I got into climbing and I try to stay clear of this activity if at all possible. However, if I was going to do something positive it would probably be removing the bolts on Nefertiti. About “bottom feeders”: So how many rap bolted squeeze jobs must a person write up before they are allowed to have an opinion? 20 years ago bolters in Tas had to hide their face in public, yet now, according to Simon, a person has to place an undisclosed number of bolts to even take part in the discussion! Of the twenty people you interviewed for your consensus Simon, did you quiz them on their bolting credentials to see if they were even worthy enough, by your own standards, to comment? Maybe the CCT can issue Certified Bolter Licences to allow a person to legally install Fixed Anchors (i.e. retro bolt trad routes) and take part in bolting ethics debates (i.e. wank on about their selfless efforts in creating positive safety changes).
Mark Savage
Highlights the importance of the importance of checking fixed gear before using it. I don't think it is useful to compare the person/people to muppets Simon. That only creates a positive image in my mind
dave james